Near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Grove — the same recurring circumstances as the discourses before it
Speakers
An unnamed deity, posing a riddle, and the Buddha, answering it
Form
A four-line riddle-verse, answered by a four-line verse repeating its exact structure with the number supplied
Length
~1 minute to read
Difficulty
★★★☆☆ — the verse itself is short, but names four separate sets of five without specifying which
Cross-reference
The Buddha's answering verse is word-for-word identical to Dhammapada verse 370 (Bhikkhuvagga)
Why this discourse
A deity asks a riddle built entirely from the number ‘how many’ (kati): how many things must a mendicant cut, how many drop, how many more develop, and by slipping how many chains are they said to have crossed the flood? The Buddha's answer supplies a single number to all four blanks — five — without naming what the four sets of five actually are. The riddle form itself is the point: this discourse rewards recognizing the shape of a teaching before knowing its full content.
Reading guide
A riddle built on one word
Every line of the deity's verse repeats the interrogative kati (‘how many’): how many to cut, how many to drop, how many more to develop, how many chains slipped. The Buddha's reply answers in exactly the same four-part structure, simply replacing each kati with pañca (‘five’).
Four fives, left unnamed
The verse itself never says what the ‘five to cut,’ ‘five to drop,’ and ‘five to develop’ actually are. Commentarial tradition reads them as three distinct sets: the five lower fetters (orambhāgiya saṁyojana) to cut, the five higher fetters (uddhambhāgiya saṁyojana) to drop, and the five spiritual faculties (indriya — faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom) to develop further. This reading is not spelled out in the verse itself.
Crossing the flood, again
The riddle's closing question — ‘when a mendicant slips how many chains are they said to have crossed the flood’ — returns to the exact image that opened this whole collection at SN 1.1, where the Buddha described crossing the flood ‘neither standing nor swimming.’ This discourse gives that same crossing a specific number attached to it.
A verse shared with the Dhammapada
The Buddha's answering verse here — ‘pañca chinde pañca jahe, pañca cuttari bhāvaye…’ — is word-for-word identical to Dhammapada verse 370, in its Bhikkhuvagga (‘Chapter on Mendicants’). The same four-part formula appears as free-standing teaching in one collection and as a deity's riddle-answer in another.
Key terms
kati — “how many?” — the interrogative repeated in every line of the deity's riddle, this discourse's title Katichinda meaning roughly “how many to cut.”
orambhāgiya saṁyojana — the five “lower fetters” — commentarial tradition's reading of what is to be “cut” in this verse, though the verse itself does not name them.
uddhambhāgiya saṁyojana — the five “higher fetters” — the commentarial reading of what is to be “dropped,” distinct from the lower fetters cut first.
indriya — the five spiritual “faculties” — faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom — the commentarial reading of what is to be “developed further.”
saṅgātigo — “one who has slipped past the ties” — the condition the riddle asks about, describing the mendicant who has crossed the flood.
The text
The discourse in full: a riddle built on 'how many,' answered with a single number repeated four times. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).
§1At Sāvatthī. Standing to one side, that deity spoke this verse in the Buddha’s presence:
§2“Cut how many? Drop how many? Develop how many more? When a mendicant slips how many chains are they said to have crossed the flood?”
§3“Five to cut, five to drop, and five more to develop. When a mendicant slips five chains they’re said to have crossed the flood.”
· · ·
Self-check quiz
Ten questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.
Question 1 of 10
What word does the deity's riddle repeat in every line?
Correct: A. The riddle is built entirely around this one interrogative.
Question 2 of 10
What single number does the Buddha's answer supply to every blank?
Correct: A. Pañca, 'five,' answers all four parts of the riddle.
Question 3 of 10
Does the verse itself name what the four sets of five actually are?
Correct: A. The specific identification comes from commentarial tradition, not the verse.
Question 4 of 10
According to commentarial tradition, what is to be 'cut'?
Correct: A. Orambhāgiya saṁyojana, per the traditional reading.
Question 5 of 10
According to commentarial tradition, what is to be 'developed further'?
Correct: A. Indriya, the five faculties, per the traditional reading.
Question 6 of 10
What image does the riddle's closing question return to?
Correct: A. The same crossing described at SN 1.1, now given a specific number.
Question 7 of 10
What well-known verse collection shares this discourse's answering verse word for word?
Correct: A. An identical four-line formula appears in both collections.
Question 8 of 10
What does 'saṅgātigo' describe?
Correct: A. The condition the riddle's closing question asks about.
Question 9 of 10
What is the form of the Buddha's answering verse?
Correct: A. The same shape, filled in with a single number.
Question 10 of 10
What is the setting of this discourse?
Correct: A. The Devatāsaṃyutta's recurring frame continues.
