Saṃyutta Nikāya · Discourse 12.14

Ascetics and Brahmins (2nd)

Dutiyasamaṇabrāhmaṇasutta

Setting
Sāvatthī, Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery
Speakers
The Buddha alone, addressing the assembled mendicants
Form
The same fourfold test as SN 12.13, now introduced with an explicit rhetorical question before each half
Length
~3.5 minutes to read
Northern parallel
A rough counterpart may exist in the Chinese Saṃyukta-āgama (T99), though this reading guide does not assert a specific matching sutra number
Difficulty
★★☆☆☆ — nearly identical content to SN 12.13, worth reading for the added pedagogical framing

Why this discourse

This discourse teaches exactly what SN 12.13 already taught — the same fourfold test of each of the twelve links, the same pointed verdict on genuine versus merely titled ascetics and brahmins — but restructures the presentation with an explicit rhetorical question inserted before each half: what things don't they understand? What things do they understand? Where SN 12.13 moved straight into the list, this version pauses first to name the question the list is about to answer, a small but genuine shift in how the same content is taught.

Reading guide

Identical content, a different pedagogical shape

Every substantive claim in this discourse matches SN 12.13 exactly; what changes is the presentation, not the teaching itself.

A question inserted before the answer, not left implicit

SN 12.13 moves directly from stating that some ascetics and brahmins fail the test into listing what they fail to understand; this version pauses to ask explicitly what things they don't understand, before answering its own question.

A generic pointer, specified afterward

The discourse first refers to "these things" in general terms, then only afterward spells out exactly which things — old age and death, rebirth, and so on through the full twelve links — a structure that builds anticipation before delivering the list SN 12.13 gives immediately.

The same two-part symmetry preserved

Like its companion, this discourse gives equal, parallel treatment to both failure and success, now each half opened by its own explicit question rather than moving straight into the answer.

A minor variation worth noticing, not overreading

The difference here is genuinely small — a restructured presentation of identical content — and this reading guide treats it as exactly that, rather than searching for a doctrinal distinction the source itself doesn't actually draw.

Key terms

ime dhamme nappajānanti, imesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayaṁ nappajānanti — “they don't understand these things, their origin” — the same fourfold formula, now introduced with a generic pointer before being spelled out.
katame dhamme nappajānanti — “what things don't they understand?” — the added rhetorical question distinguishing this version's structure from SN 12.13's.
katamesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayaṁ… nirodhaṁ… nirodhagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ — “what things' origin… cessation… practice leading to cessation” — the question expanded into its full fourfold form.
na me te… samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā samaṇasammatā — “I don't deem them as true ascetics and brahmins” — the identical verdict already given in SN 12.13.
te kho me… samaṇasammatā — “I deem them as true ascetics and brahmins” — the identical positive verdict, closing this version exactly as SN 12.13 closes.

The text

The discourse in full. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

§1“Mendicants, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t understand these things, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. What things don’t they understand? They don’t understand old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. They don’t understand rebirth … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … They don’t understand choices, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. They don’t understand these things, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. I don’t deem them as true ascetics and brahmins. Those venerables don’t realize the goal of life as an ascetic or brahmin, and don’t live having realized it with their own insight.

§2There are ascetics and brahmins who do understand these things, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. What things do they understand? They understand old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. They understand rebirth … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … They understand choices, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. They understand these things, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. I deem them as true ascetics and brahmins. Those venerables realize the goal of life as an ascetic or brahmin, and live having realized it with their own insight.”

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Self-check quiz

Ten questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 10
How does this discourse's content compare to SN 12.13's?
Correct: A. The same teaching, restructured rather than replaced.
Question 2 of 10
What does this version add before listing what some ascetics and brahmins fail to understand?
Correct: A. A pause before the answer, distinguishing this version's structure.
Question 3 of 10
How does this discourse first refer to the twelve links, before spelling them out?
Correct: A. Building anticipation before delivering the full list.
Question 4 of 10
Does this discourse preserve the same two-part symmetry (failure and success) as SN 12.13?
Correct: A. The same balanced structure, now with explicit questions framing each half.
Question 5 of 10
How does this reading guide characterize the difference between SN 12.13 and SN 12.14?
Correct: A. Honest treatment of a minor variation without overreading it.
Question 6 of 10
What verdict does the Buddha give for those who fail the fourfold test in this version?
Correct: A. The identical conclusion, unchanged from the companion discourse.
Question 7 of 10
What is the first link discussed once the list is spelled out?
Correct: A. Matching SN 12.13's own starting point in the enumeration.
Question 8 of 10
What is the standard this discourse gives for genuine ascetic or brahmin status?
Correct: A. Identical substantive content across both discourses.
Question 9 of 10
What is the numbering convention for this discourse's Pali title?
Correct: A. Explicitly marked as the second in a pair with SN 12.13.
Question 10 of 10
Where does the Buddha deliver this teaching?
Correct: A. The same setting shared with SN 12.13.
Answered 0 of 10 · Correct 0