Saṃyutta Nikāya · Discourse 41.8

The Jain Ascetic of the Ñātika Clan

Nigaṇṭhanāṭaputtasutta — Cittavagga

Setting
Macchikāsaṇḍa, where the Jain ascetic Nātaputta has arrived with a large assembly
Speakers
Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta (the historical founder figure of Jainism) questioning Citta the householder
Form
A challenge to faith, met by a claim to direct attainment, followed by a caught contradiction
Length
~2 minutes to read
Northern parallel
A rough counterpart may exist in the Chinese Saṃyukta-āgama (T99), though this reading guide does not assert a specific matching sutra number
Difficulty
★★★☆☆ — an inter-religious debate scene, sharply argued

Why this discourse

This discourse pits Citta against the leader of a rival religious movement: Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta, traditionally identified with the historical founder of Jainism, challenges Citta's faith in the Buddha's claim that absorption without placing and keeping the mind connected is possible — comparing it to catching wind in a net or damming the Ganges by hand. Citta's own answer refuses the premise: he does not rely on faith in the Buddha's claim at all, because he has personally attained all four absorptions himself. Nātaputta's own praise instantly reverses into an insult once Citta's answer stops being convenient, and Citta catches the contradiction directly, closing with a pointed challenge Nātaputta's own assembly never actually answers.

Reading guide

A challenge built on a vivid image

Nātaputta's own metaphors — catching wind in a net, damming the Ganges with a bare hand — frame the cessation of placing and keeping the mind connected as flatly impossible, not merely difficult, before Citta has said a single word in reply.

Not faith, but attainment

Citta's own answer bypasses the entire faith-versus-argument framing Nātaputta has set up: rather than defending the Buddha's claim on authority, Citta simply states that he has personally entered all four absorptions himself, whenever he wishes, making the question of whose word to trust irrelevant.

Praise reversed into insult, caught in real time

Nātaputta calls Citta “straightforward” and “not deceitful” before hearing his real answer, then instantly calls him “crooked” and “devious” once the answer proves inconvenient — and Citta names the direct contradiction between the two statements aloud, rather than letting it pass.

Ten legitimate questions, left unasked

Citta's own closing move — naming a traditional ten-part numerical catechism (one question with one summary and one answer, two with two, and so on up to ten) and inviting Nātaputta's assembly to answer it — is a direct challenge Citta then simply walks away from without waiting for a response, leaving the confrontation unresolved rather than staged as a clean victory.

Key terms

nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto — “the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan” — traditionally identified with Mahāvīra, the historical founder figure of Jainism
avitakko avicāro samādhi — “immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected” — the attainment Nātaputta challenges as impossible, corresponding to the second absorption onward
ñāṇaṁ vā saddhā vā — “knowledge or faith” — the question Citta poses back to Nātaputta, setting up his own answer by personal attainment rather than argument
yāva ujuko... yāva anujuko — “how straightforward... how crooked” — Nātaputta's own two contradictory descriptions of Citta, spoken in direct succession
dasa sahadhammikā pañhā — “these ten legitimate questions” — the numerical catechism Citta poses as a closing challenge, then leaves unasked and unanswered

The text

The complete discourse. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

§1Now at that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics. Citta the householder heard that they had arrived. Together with several lay followers, he went up to the Jain Ñātika and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. The Jain Ñātika said to him, “Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?” “Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.” When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked up at his assembly and said, “See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all. To imagine that you can stop placing the mind and keeping it connected would be like imagining that you can catch the wind in a net, or dam the Ganges river with your own hand.” “What do you think, sir? Which is better—knowledge or faith?” “Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.” “Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption. And whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption. And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption. And so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?” When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked askance at his own assembly and said, “See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!” “Sir, just now I understood you to say: ‘See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all.’ But then I understood you to say: ‘See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!’ If your first statement is true, the second is wrong. If your first statement is wrong, the second is true. And also, sir, these ten legitimate questions are relevant. When you understand what they mean, then, together with your assembly of Jain ascetics, you can rebut me. ‘One thing: question, summary, and answer. Two … Three … Four … Five … Six … Seven … Eight … Nine … Ten things: question, summary, and answer.’” Then Citta got up from his seat and left without asking the Jain Ñātika these ten legitimate questions.

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Self-check quiz

4 questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 4
What does Nātaputta compare the cessation of placing and keeping the mind connected to?
Correct: A. Framing the claim as impossible, not merely difficult, before Citta has replied.
Question 2 of 4
How does Citta answer Nātaputta's challenge?
Correct: A. Not faith in another's claim, but Citta's own direct, repeatable attainment.
Question 3 of 4
What contradiction does Citta point out in Nātaputta's own words?
Correct: A. Praise reversed into insult in real time, caught and named aloud rather than let pass.
Question 4 of 4
How does this discourse end?
Correct: A. An unresolved confrontation, not staged as a clean, tidy victory.
Answered 0 of 4 · Correct 0