Saṃyutta Nikāya · Discourse 44.7

With Moggallāna

Moggallānasutta — Abyākatavagga

Setting
Not specified in this discourse's own opening
Speakers
The wanderer Vacchagotta questioning Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, then the Buddha himself
Form
The first discourse in this saṃyutta to give the full traditional list of ten undeclared theses, not only the four about a realized one after death
Length
~2 minutes to read
Northern parallel
No individual parallel confirmed by this project's own check
Difficulty
★★☆☆☆ — a longer list, one clear argument

Why this discourse

This discourse is this project's own first encounter with the complete list of ten questions the tradition treats as undeclared — not only the four about a realized one after death that SN 44.1–6 confined themselves to, confirmed by direct reading, but also the cosmos's own eternality and finitude, and whether the soul and the body are one thing or two. The wanderer Vacchagotta puts the same question to Moggallāna and then to the Buddha directly, receiving the identical answer both times, confirming this saṃyutta's own recurring pattern of teacher and disciple speaking with one voice, already met at SN 44.1.

Reading guide

Ten theses, not four

Eternal or not eternal, finite or infinite (the cosmos); the soul the same as or different from the body; and the familiar four about a realized one after death — confirmed by reading this discourse's own full list directly, the complete traditional set this saṃyutta's own other discourses each draw a subset from.

Six sense fields held as self, or not

The reason others declare an answer and the Buddha does not is traced here to the six sense fields (eye through mind) rather than the five aggregates this saṃyutta has mostly used so far — a genuinely different analytical frame, confirmed by direct reading, though the underlying logic (regarding something as “mine,” “I,” or “my self” is what generates a declared answer) is familiar from elsewhere in this project.

A disciple's answer, confirmed by the teacher

As at SN 44.1, Vacchagotta checks Moggallāna's own answer against the Buddha's directly and finds them identical — the discourse's own closing exclamation, word for word the same as King Pasenadi's at SN 44.1, is this project's own second occurrence of this exact formula.

Key terms

sassato loko — “the cosmos is eternal” — the first of ten undeclared theses this discourse lists in full, not appearing in SN 44.1–6's own narrower four
taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīraṁ... aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīraṁ — “the soul and the body are one and the same... the soul is one thing, the body another” — a further pair of theses new to this discourse
cakkhuṁ... manaṁ etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā — “the eye... the mind: this is mine, I am this, this is my self” — the six sense fields, the analytical frame this discourse uses rather than the five aggregates
na kho etaṁ, vaccha, bhagavatā byākataṁ — “Vaccha, this has not been declared by the Buddha” — Moggallāna's own identical answer to all ten theses in turn
acchariyaṁ, bho gotama, abbhutaṁ, bho gotama — “it's incredible, worthy Gotama, it's amazing!” — Vacchagotta's own closing exclamation, identical in formula to King Pasenadi's at SN 44.1

The text

The complete discourse, as genuinely translated. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

Setting, and all ten undeclared theses

§1Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to Mahāmoggallāna: “Worthy Moggallāna, is this right: ‘the cosmos is eternal’?” “Vaccha, this has not been declared by the Buddha.” “Then is this right: ‘the cosmos is not eternal’ … ‘the cosmos is finite’ … ‘the cosmos is infinite’ … ‘the soul and the body are one and the same’ … ‘the soul is one thing, the body another’ … ‘a realized one still exists after death’ … ‘a realized one no longer exists after death’ … ‘a realized one both still exists and no longer exists after death’ … ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death’?” “This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

Why: others cling to the six sense fields as self, the Buddha does not

§2“What’s the cause, worthy Moggallāna, what’s the reason why, when the wanderers of other religions are asked these questions, they declare one of these to be true? And what’s the reason why, when the ascetic Gotama is asked these questions, he does not declare one of these to be true?” “Vaccha, the wanderers of other religions regard the eye like this: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ They regard the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind like this: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ That’s why, when asked, they declare one of those answers to be true. The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha regards the eye like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ He regards the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ That’s why, when asked, he does not declare one of those answers to be true.”

Vacchagotta puts the same question to the Buddha himself

§3Then the wanderer Vacchagotta got up from his seat and went to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha the same questions, and received the same answers. He said, “It’s incredible, worthy Gotama, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter! Just now I went to the ascetic Mahāmoggallāna and asked him about this matter. And he explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like the worthy Gotama. It’s incredible, worthy Gotama, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!”

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Self-check quiz

3 questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 3
How many undeclared theses does this discourse list in full?
Correct: A. This project's own first encounter with the full traditional list — SN 44.1-6 confined themselves to the last four alone.
Question 2 of 3
What does this discourse identify as the reason others declare an answer while the Buddha does not?
Correct: A. A genuinely different analytical frame from the five aggregates this saṃyutta has mostly used — here it is the six sense fields.
Question 3 of 3
What happens when Vacchagotta puts the same question to the Buddha after already asking Moggallāna?
Correct: A. This project's own second occurrence of the exact "incredible... amazing" formula, confirming teacher and disciple speak with one voice.
Answered 0 of 3 · Correct 0