Saṃyutta Nikāya · Discourse 54.12

In Doubt

Kaṅkheyyasutta — Dutiyavagga

Setting
Kapilavatthu, the Banyan Tree Monastery
Speakers
Mahānāma the Sakyan and Venerable Lomasakaṅgiya
Form
A question, then two distinct explanations: a new comparison, then a verbatim quotation of SN 54.11
Length
2–3 minutes to read
Northern parallel
No individual parallel confirmed by this project's own check
Significance
★★★★ — a disciple, not the Buddha, answers the question, using both a genuinely new comparison and a direct quotation of an earlier discourse

Why this discourse

Confirmed by direct reading, Mahānāma the Sakyan asks Venerable Lomasakaṅgiya directly: “is the meditation of a trainee just the same as the meditation of a realized one? Or is the meditation of a trainee different from the meditation of a realized one?” Lomasakaṅgiya's own answer has two distinct parts: a genuinely new comparison using the five hindrances, and then a verbatim quotation of SN 54.11's own Icchānaṅgala account, confirmed by direct comparison to be word for word identical.

Reading guide

Given up, or cut off at the root

Confirmed by direct reading, this discourse's own new material distinguishes the two meditations by degree, not kind: both trainees and arahants meditate having addressed the same five hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt), but trainees have only “given up” them, while for arahants they are “cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future” — suppression versus permanent uprooting.

A disciple quoting the Buddha directly

This project's own direct comparison: Lomasakaṅgiya's own second explanation is not a fresh teaching but a verbatim quotation of SN 54.11's own account, matching it word for word — the three-month retreat, the scripted answer for other wanderers, the first-person formula, and the three honorific titles (noble, divine, the Realized One's own meditation) all repeated exactly, confirming this discourse as a documented instance of a disciple citing the Buddha's own prior teaching rather than a separate, independent occasion.

Key terms

so eva nu kho...sekho vihāro so tathāgatavihāro, udāhu aññova sekho vihāro añño tathāgatavihāro — “is the meditation of a trainee just the same as the meditation of a realized one, or is it different?” — Mahānāma's own opening question
pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya viharanti — “they meditate after giving up the five hindrances” — the trainee's own condition, temporary suppression
pañca nīvaraṇā pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā — “the five hindrances are cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future” — the arahant's own condition, permanent uprooting
aññova sekho vihāro, añño tathāgatavihāro — “the meditation of a trainee and a realized one are different” — Lomasakaṅgiya's own direct answer, repeated after each of his two explanations
tadamināpetaṁ...pariyāyena veditabbaṁ — “here's another way to understand” — Lomasakaṅgiya's own transition into quoting SN 54.11's own account as a second explanation

The text

Every genuinely translated fragment given in the consulted English source, including the verbatim quotation of SN 54.11's own account. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

§1At one time Venerable Lomasakaṅgiya was staying in the land of the Sakyans, near Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Tree Monastery. Then Mahānāma the Sakyan went up to Venerable Lomasakaṅgiya, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him, “Sir, is the meditation of a trainee just the same as the meditation of a realized one? Or is the meditation of a trainee different from the meditation of a realized one?”

§2“Reverend Mahānāma, the meditation of a trainee and a realized one are not the same; they are different. Those mendicants who are trainees haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring for the supreme sanctuary from the yoke. They meditate after giving up the five hindrances. What five? The hindrances of sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt.

§3Those who are trainee mendicants … meditate after giving up the five hindrances.

§4Those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart’s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—for them, the five hindrances are cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. What five? The hindrances of sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt.

§5Those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements … for them, the five hindrances are cut off at the root … and unable to arise in the future. And here’s another way to understand how the meditation of a trainee and a realized one are different.

Quoting SN 54.11 (the Icchānaṅgala account)At one time the Buddha was staying in a forest near Icchānaṅgala. There he addressed the mendicants, ‘Mendicants, I wish to go on retreat for three months. No-one should approach me, except for the one who brings my almsfood.’ ‘Yes, sir,’ replied those mendicants. And no-one approached him, except for the one who brought the almsfood. Then after three months had passed, the Buddha came out of retreat and addressed the mendicants: ‘Mendicants, if wanderers who follow another religion were to ask you: “Reverends, what was the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence?” You should answer them like this: “Reverends, the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence was immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.” In this regard: mindful, I breathe in. Mindful, I breathe out. Breathing in heavily I know: “I’m breathing in heavily.” Breathing out heavily I know: “I’m breathing out heavily.” … I know: “I’ll breathe in observing letting go.” I know: “I’ll breathe out observing letting go.” For if anything should be rightly called “noble meditation”, or else “divine meditation’, or else “a realized one’s meditation”, it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing. For those mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring for the supreme sanctuary from the yoke—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to the ending of defilements. For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart’s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in this very life, and to mindfulness and awareness. For if anything should be rightly called “noble meditation”, or else “divine meditation’, or else “a realized one’s meditation”, it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.’ This is another way to understand how the meditation of a trainee and a realized one are different.”

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Self-check quiz

3 questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 3
What question does Mahānāma the Sakyan ask Venerable Lomasakaṅgiya?
Correct: A. Confirmed by direct reading — Mahānāma's own opening question, in his own words.
Question 2 of 3
How does this discourse's own new material distinguish a trainee's meditation from an arahant's, using the five hindrances?
Correct: A. Confirmed by direct reading: a distinction of degree, not of which hindrances apply.
Question 3 of 3
What does this project's own direct comparison confirm about Lomasakaṅgiya's own second explanation?
Correct: A. Confirmed by direct comparison — a documented instance of a disciple citing the Buddha's own prior teaching.
Answered 0 of 3 · Correct 0