Saṃyutta Nikāya · Discourse 12.30

Ascetics and Brahmins (2nd)

Dutiyasamaṇabrāhmaṇasutta

Setting
Sāvatthī
Speakers
The Buddha alone, addressing the assembled mendicants
Form
The familiar fourfold test, now framed around possibility and impossibility rather than title
Length
~3 minutes to read
Northern parallel
A rough counterpart may exist in the Chinese Saṃyukta-āgama (T99), though this reading guide does not assert a specific matching sutra number
Difficulty
★★☆☆☆ — closes Dasabalavagga with a meaningful shift in framing

Why this discourse

Closing Dasabalavagga, this discourse takes the same fourfold test already given three times in this chapter and reframes its conclusion. Rather than asking whether someone counts as a true ascetic or brahmin, it asks something more concrete: is it even possible for them to abide having transcended each link? For those lacking understanding, the answer is a flat impossibility — they simply cannot get beyond old age and death, or any other link, without understanding it fully. For those who understand, transcendence becomes genuinely possible. A shift from conferring or withholding a title to stating a plain fact about what can and cannot actually happen.

Reading guide

A familiar test, reframed around outcome rather than title

Where SN 12.13, SN 12.14, and SN 12.29 all conclude by granting or withholding the title of true ascetic or brahmin, this discourse instead states directly whether transcending each link is even possible.

Impossibility stated as a plain fact, not a judgment

The language here isn't evaluative in the way a title verdict is; it states as a simple fact that it's impossible for someone lacking understanding to abide having transcended old age and death, or any other link.

Possibility given equally direct, factual treatment

The positive case receives the same treatment in reverse: for those who understand each link fully, transcending it is stated as genuinely possible, with the same flat, factual phrasing.

A closing chapter, its full shape now visible

This discourse closes Dasabalavagga, and the source's own closing summary verse lists all ten discourse titles in sequence — the two Ten Powers discourses, Vital Conditions, the contact-reduction trio, Dependency, A Mendicant, and the two Ascetics-and-Brahmins pairs closing the chapter.

A fitting final note for a chapter grounding authority in understanding

Dasabalavagga opened by grounding the Buddha's own authority in mastery of this same material; closing on a statement of what genuine understanding actually makes possible brings the chapter's own concern with grounded, demonstrable knowledge full circle.

Key terms

te vata jarāmaraṇaṁ samatikkamma ṭhassantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati — “it's impossible that they will abide having transcended old age and death” — the shift from a title verdict to a statement of plain impossibility.
te vata jarāmaraṇaṁ samatikkamma ṭhassantīti ṭhānametaṁ vijjati — “it's possible that they will abide having transcended old age and death” — the positive counterpart, equally direct and factual.
saṅkhāre samatikkamma ṭhassanti — “abide having transcended choices” — the same possibility-or-impossibility framing applied to the chain's final link.
dasabalavaggo tatiyo — “Dasabalavagga, the third [chapter]” — the untranslated closing marker naming the chapter this discourse completes.
dve dasabalā upanisā ca… dve ca samaṇabrāhmaṇāti — “two Ten Powers discourses, and Vital Conditions… and two Ascetics-and-Brahmins” — the closing summary verse naming this chapter's ten discourses in sequence.

The text

The discourse in full, closing Dasabalavagga. The chapter's closing summary verse, listing all ten discourse titles, is a structural index and is not reproduced as running prose here. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

§1“Mendicants, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t understand old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. It’s impossible that they will abide having transcended old age and death. They don’t understand rebirth … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … They don’t understand choices, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. It’s impossible that they will abide having transcended choices.

§2There are ascetics and brahmins who do understand old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. It’s possible that they will abide having transcended old age and death. They understand rebirth … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … They understand choices, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. It’s possible that they will abide having transcended choices.”

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Self-check quiz

Ten questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 10
How does this discourse's framing differ from SN 12.13, SN 12.14, and SN 12.29?
Correct: A. A shift from conferring or withholding a title to stating a plain fact.
Question 2 of 10
What does the discourse say about someone lacking understanding of old age and death?
Correct: A. A flat statement of impossibility, not a graded judgment.
Question 3 of 10
What does the discourse say about someone who does understand each link fully?
Correct: A. Equally direct, factual treatment for the positive case.
Question 4 of 10
What does this discourse close, structurally, within Nidānavagga?
Correct: A. Confirmed by the chapter's closing summary verse listing all ten titles.
Question 5 of 10
How does this discourse's closing theme connect back to Dasabalavagga's opening?
Correct: A. Bringing the chapter's concern with grounded knowledge full circle.
Question 6 of 10
What is the language used to describe impossibility, according to this reading guide?
Correct: A. A statement of what can and cannot happen, not a judgment of worth.
Question 7 of 10
What is the first link addressed in this discourse's fourfold test?
Correct: A. The consistent starting point across this chapter's related discourses.
Question 8 of 10
What is the final link closing the enumeration?
Correct: A. Matching the standard closing point already established in this chapter.
Question 9 of 10
What does the chapter's closing summary verse list?
Correct: A. A structural index summarizing the entire chapter by title.
Question 10 of 10
Where does the Buddha deliver this teaching?
Correct: A. The consistent setting across most of this chapter.
Answered 0 of 10 · Correct 0