Ud 6.5 — Followers of Various Other Religions (2nd)

Reading guide

The same frame, a longer list

Like Ud 6.4, this sutta opens with wanderers of various other religions disputing in Sāvatthī. But the subject has shifted, from “the cosmos” alone to “the self and the cosmos” together, and the list of views has grown from ten to sixteen. The first eight apply two familiar fourfold patterns to “the self and the cosmos”: is it eternal, not eternal, both, or neither — and is it self-made, other-made, made by both, or “arisen anomalously,” meaning spontaneously, without any maker at all. The second eight repeat that exact same eightfold pattern a second time, now with “pleasure and pain” folded in alongside “the self and the cosmos” in every clause. The effect, on the page, is genuinely systematic — less a snapshot of a shouting match and more something closer to a catalogue.

Where the parable should be

As in Ud 6.4, mendicants report the dispute to the Buddha. But at the point where Ud 6.4 launched into the full parable of the blind men and the elephant, the translation as preserved moves directly to the heartfelt saying. The parable is not repeated here. This is worth stating plainly rather than smoothing over: the gap reflects the source text itself, not an editorial choice on this page. The likely explanation is straightforward — reciters and editors, having just given the parable in full one sutta earlier, apparently saw no need to repeat it word for word a second time. Below, in “The Text,” a bracketed note marks exactly where this happens.

The heartfelt saying

The closing verse departs from Ud 6.4’s: “Some ascetics and brahmins, it seems, cling to these things. They founder in mid-stream, without reaching that objective.” Where Ud 6.4 closed on the elephant image directly, this verse shifts to the language of crossing water — a common image elsewhere in the canon for the journey toward liberation, often described as reaching “the far shore.” Read that way, the line suggests something sharper than mere confusion: these disputants are not simply arguing pointlessly, but are attempting a real crossing and getting stuck partway, unable to reach what they’re actually after. That reading fits the verse’s own vocabulary well, though the verse itself doesn’t spell out the metaphor any further than this.

Key terms

the sixteen views — this sutta’s expanded doctrinal list: two sets of eight, the first about “the self and the cosmos,” the second folding in “pleasure and pain” alongside them.

sayaṅkata / paraṅkata — “made by oneself” and “made by another” — two of the four causation positions applied first to the self and cosmos, then again to pleasure and pain.

adhiccasamuppanna — rendered here as “arisen anomalously” — spontaneous or uncaused arising, the fourth position in each fourfold causation set, alongside self-made, other-made, and both.

the elided parable — the blind-men-and-the-elephant story, told in full at Ud 6.4, simply assumed rather than repeated here in the source text as preserved.

“founder in mid-stream” — this sutta’s closing image for the disputants, replacing Ud 6.4’s elephant-based line with a different metaphor of failing to complete a crossing.

The text

The discourse as preserved in the source text, including the point where it moves directly from the mendicants’ report to the heartfelt saying, without repeating the elephant parable given in full at Ud 6.4. Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0, SuttaCentral).

§1So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Now at that time several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who followed various other religions were residing in Sāvatthī, holding different views, beliefs, and opinions, relying on different views.

§2There were some ascetics and brahmins who had this doctrine and view: “The self and the cosmos are eternal. This is the only truth, anything else is futile.”

The first eight views

§3–9Others held views such as the following, each regarding their own view as true and others as silly:

“The self and the cosmos are not eternal.”
“The self and the cosmos are both eternal and not eternal.”
“The self and the cosmos are neither eternal nor not eternal.”
“The self and the cosmos are made by oneself.”
“The self and the cosmos are made by another.”
“The self and the cosmos are made by both oneself and another.”
“The self and the cosmos have arisen anomalously, not made by oneself or another.”

The second eight views

§10–17The same eightfold pattern was repeated once more, now with pleasure and pain folded in alongside the self and the cosmos:

“Pleasure and pain are eternal, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are not eternal, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are both eternal and not eternal, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are neither eternal nor not eternal, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are made by oneself, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are made by another, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain are made by both oneself and another, and the self and the cosmos.”
“Pleasure and pain have arisen anomalously, not made by oneself or another, and the self and the cosmos.”

§18They were fighting, quarreling, and disputing, continually wounding each other with barbed words: “Such is Truth, such is not Truth! Such is not Truth, such is Truth!”

§19Then several mendicants robed up in the morning and, taking their bowls and robes, entered Sāvatthī for alms. Then, after the meal, when they returned from almsround, they went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what was happening.

A note on the text. At this point, Ud 6.4 gives the parable of the blind men and the elephant in full. The source translation, as preserved, does not repeat it here — it moves directly from the mendicants’ report to the heartfelt saying below. This gap reflects the text itself, not an omission made for this page.

§23Then, understanding this matter, on that occasion the Buddha expressed this heartfelt sentiment:

§24“Some ascetics and brahmins, it seems, cling to these things. They founder in mid-stream, without reaching that objective.”

· · ·

Self-check quiz

Ten questions. Click an answer to see immediate feedback. No score is recorded — this is for your own checking.

Question 1 of 10

What is this sutta’s frame story, compared to Ud 6.4?

Correct: B. Ud 6.4, 6.5, and 6.6 form a closely related triad sharing one frame story.

Question 2 of 10

What is the subject of dispute here, compared to Ud 6.4’s “the cosmos” alone?

Correct: D. Every view in this sutta pairs “the self” with “the cosmos” rather than addressing the cosmos alone.

Question 3 of 10

How many total views does this sutta list?

Correct: C. Two sets of eight: one on the self and cosmos alone, one adding pleasure and pain.

Question 4 of 10

What are the four causation positions applied to “the self and the cosmos”?

Correct: A. This fourfold causation scheme is applied twice — once alone, once combined with pleasure and pain.

Question 5 of 10

What new element is folded into the second set of eight views?

Correct: C. The same eightfold structure repeats, now with pleasure and pain added to every clause.

Question 6 of 10

Does the source translation repeat the blind-men-and-the-elephant parable in this sutta?

Correct: B. This is flagged directly in both the reading guide and the text section.

Question 7 of 10

What does the heartfelt saying say happens to these ascetics and brahmins?

Correct: D. This replaces Ud 6.4’s elephant-based closing image.

Question 8 of 10

How does this closing image differ from Ud 6.4’s?

Correct: A. The reading guide connects this to the common canonical image of crossing to “the far shore.”

Question 9 of 10

What Pali-derived term describes the “uncaused” position in the fourfold causation scheme?

Correct: C. This term appears in both the self-and-cosmos set and the pleasure-and-pain set.

Question 10 of 10

Which sutta immediately precedes this one in the same chapter, sharing its frame story and containing the full parable?

Correct: B. Ud 6.4, 6.5, and 6.6 form a triad set in the same city with the same premise.

Answered 0 of 10 · Correct 0

Followers of Various Other Religions (2nd)

Why this heartfelt saying